Discussion:
Spike. Harmony. (possible spoilers?)
(too old to reply)
Rose
2003-10-20 14:22:21 UTC
Permalink
possible future spoilers












































I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of sorts...

The scuttlebutt on the boards, based on some vague future spoilers and an
interview with James Marsters in which he waxes on about what Spike loves about
Harmony, is that ME is floating trial balloons for a Spike/Harmony pairing.

I just want to put in my two cents: No. No way.

The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it. 40ish
actor with extremely young actress in a romantic role is such an overdone
cliche. It wouldn't be illegal to put him with a woman over 30. What next,
bring back Joyce and Oz and make them a couple? No, you'd never do that,
because older woman- and- younger- man couplings aren't "okay."

Second, Old Spike used to abuse Harmony. You guys made the decision to make
New Spike so similar to old Spike, sans only the sociopathy, that it would be
really too close to showing a woman taking back her abuser for comfort. I know
you had Spike take back his abuser last year but why repeat that?

Third, Harmony is stupid and to quite a few people, annoying. I know you like
to have characters go on and on about Spike not being that bright, but he's not
written or played that way. If you want Spike to be a moron maybe you should
give Marsters better direction so he leaves that intelligent look out of his
eyes. Putting a reasonably intelligent character with Harmony would trivialize
him. She's comic relief, a running joke, and considering the scapegoat nature
of Spike as it is, putting him with Harmony would make HIM a joke.

Third, Harmony is an evil, soulless vampire, and since you all have firmly
established that redemption for an evil, soulless vampire is impossible, it
would be uncool for Spike, who now has a conscience, to hook up with a
sociopath.

I don't have a crystal ball, but I think "Sparmony" would turn off Spike fans
and hurt ratings.

That's my two cents.







Rose
Bringing you quality posts since 1997.
Julie Carrigon
2003-10-20 16:26:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of sorts...
The scuttlebutt on the boards, based on some vague future spoilers and an
interview with James Marsters in which he waxes on about what Spike loves about
Harmony, is that ME is floating trial balloons for a Spike/Harmony pairing.
I just want to put in my two cents: No. No way.
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it.
40ish
Post by Rose
actor with extremely young actress in a romantic role is such an overdone
cliche. It wouldn't be illegal to put him with a woman over 30. What next,
bring back Joyce and Oz and make them a couple? No, you'd never do that,
because older woman- and- younger- man couplings aren't "okay."
Second, Old Spike used to abuse Harmony. You guys made the decision to make
New Spike so similar to old Spike, sans only the sociopathy, that it would be
really too close to showing a woman taking back her abuser for comfort. I know
you had Spike take back his abuser last year but why repeat that?
Third, Harmony is stupid and to quite a few people, annoying. I know you like
to have characters go on and on about Spike not being that bright, but he's not
written or played that way. If you want Spike to be a moron maybe you should
give Marsters better direction so he leaves that intelligent look out of his
eyes. Putting a reasonably intelligent character with Harmony would trivialize
him. She's comic relief, a running joke, and considering the scapegoat nature
of Spike as it is, putting him with Harmony would make HIM a joke.
Third, Harmony is an evil, soulless vampire, and since you all have firmly
established that redemption for an evil, soulless vampire is impossible, it
would be uncool for Spike, who now has a conscience, to hook up with a
sociopath.
I don't have a crystal ball, but I think "Sparmony" would turn off Spike fans
and hurt ratings.
That's my two cents.
Rose
Bringing you quality posts since 1997.
I'm not so against them being together, but I want to see Harmony's
character redeemed first. I'd like to see her become good. I like her, I
think she's ditzy, but she's funny and she brings alittle fun and lightness
to the show. And I think Spike finds her fun and it's only natural that he
would gravitate toward her since he spent tons of years with crazy Dru. But
as I said, I'd want Harmony to be redeemed first.

Carrigon
--
http://carrigon.proboards15.com
ANS-Alpha Nu Sigma--Angel n Spike Sorority Spoilers
SWeick
2003-10-20 17:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of sorts...
Roaz, honestly, you need to decide. Are you back
or not? If not, stay not. If you are, don't keep disappearing.
Post by Rose
The scuttlebutt on the boards, based on some vague future spoilers and an
interview with James Marsters in which he waxes on about what Spike loves about
Harmony, is that ME is floating trial balloons for a Spike/Harmony pairing.
Cute couple. Seeing that they already were a
pairing, it would be an interesting compare/contrast
between two soulless vampires and a souled and
soulless vampire.
Post by Rose
I just want to put in my two cents: No. No way.
Cause if you aren't a contributor here, why should we
care what your two cents are?
Post by Rose
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it.
Verses SMG and JM? They look it too.


What next,
Post by Rose
bring back Joyce and Oz and make them a couple?
Joyce is dead. It would be more like if Connor and Lilah
had gotten it on. Which wouldn't have bothered me, unlike
how Cordy/Connor was just pathetic. Age difference
isn't the problem there but rather the relationships.



No, you'd never do that,
Post by Rose
because older woman- and- younger- man couplings aren't "okay."
Sure they are. Problem is that there are few 40
year old women that TV are willing to use. There the
execs are being sexist bastards, not in the lack of Fall/Spring
relationships between women and men.

BTW, you do know that Joss et al have basically said all
those 40's/20's-teen relationships are "A Bad Bad Thing"?
Post by Rose
Second, Old Spike used to abuse Harmony. You guys made the decision to make
New Spike so similar to old Spike, sans only the sociopathy, that it would be
really too close to showing a woman taking back her abuser for comfort.
You mean like Buffy?



I
Post by Rose
know
you had Spike take back his abuser last year but why repeat that?
You mean like Buffy.

And versa vice.
Post by Rose
Third, Harmony is stupid and to quite a few people, annoying.
There is the flaw of having Harmony on the show, not
in having her in a relationship with Spike.
Post by Rose
If you want Spike to be a moron
There isn't anything showing them wanting Spike to be
a moron. And getting involved with Harmony wouldn't
make him a moron. Just very lonely.


Putting a reasonably intelligent character with Harmony would
Post by Rose
trivialize
him. She's comic relief, a running joke, and considering the scapegoat nature
of Spike as it is, putting him with Harmony would make HIM a joke.
You mean like George Burns was with Gracie?

"Say goodnight Gracie."
"Goodnight Gracie."
Post by Rose
Third, Harmony is an evil, soulless vampire, and since you all have firmly
established that redemption for an evil, soulless vampire is impossible, it
would be uncool for Spike, who now has a conscience, to hook up with a
sociopath.
Well again, that is the problem with Harmony being
kept around. Of course, this is true of Buffy with soulless
Spike. (Amazing how she never had sex with soulled Spike.
Guess she really does need a monster in her guy.)

Of course they could have her after the soulless thing
keeps getting brought up fly to Africa and come back
soulled, and just exactly the same as before. :-)
Post by Rose
I don't have a crystal ball, but I think "Sparmony" would turn off Spike fans
and hurt ratings.
If the S4 crappy writing hadn't, this won't. I think those who
enjoy Smallville won't have the problems you do with
it, and most of us don't care enough about Spike
to let that effect us. So I don't see the rating thing
being an issue.

OTOH nekkid Harmony would be a good thing for ratings,
and if that requires Masters to be ontop a naked MM, the
poor man will just have to make some sacrifices.

All those also willing to make said sacrifices, get behind
me in line.




Stephen Weick









(Hey, what are you looking down here for?)
Mark Jones
2003-10-20 17:47:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by SWeick
If the S4 crappy writing hadn't, this won't. I think those who
enjoy Smallville won't have the problems you do with
it, and most of us don't care enough about Spike
to let that effect us. So I don't see the rating thing
being an issue.
Hey! I resemble that remark! (The one about Smallville viewers, that is.)

I watch Smallville. I enjoy Smallville. I'm not blind to it's flaws,
but overall it still gives me enough enjoyment that I'm willing to
overlook them. Angel...not so much. I watched the first episode. I
_sorta_ watched the second. Mostly not, though--which is why I haven't
had anything to say about it this past week. So all those who says some
of us are only watching so we can bitch about it can put a sock in it.

I'm fairly sure I won't be watching the third ep either. So at least
one Smallville viewer can enjoy _that_ show and still be appalled by
what they've done to _Angel_. The ME death spiral is well and truly
engaged.

"I guess there's nothing left to do but auger this baby into the ground."
Post by SWeick
OTOH nekkid Harmony would be a good thing for ratings,
and if that requires Masters to be ontop a naked MM, the
poor man will just have to make some sacrifices.
Tragic, I tells ya. I'd be glad to be his stunt double.
SWeick
2003-10-20 20:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Jones
Post by SWeick
If the S4 crappy writing hadn't, this won't. I think those who
enjoy Smallville won't have the problems you do with
it, and most of us don't care enough about Spike
to let that effect us. So I don't see the rating thing
being an issue.
Hey! I resemble that remark! (The one about Smallville viewers, that is.)
Yeah, but you've given up on AtSS already before a possible S/H pairing.

So you fit under the crappy writing of previous to, S4 and all.
Post by Mark Jones
So all those who says some
of us are only watching so we can bitch about it can put a sock in it.
The absence of so many from this newsgroup already said this.
Post by Mark Jones
I'm fairly sure I won't be watching the third ep either. So at least
one Smallville viewer can enjoy _that_ show and still be appalled by
what they've done to _Angel_. The ME death spiral is well and truly
engaged.
But again, not by having Spike and Harmony get together,
but rather because of stuff like the idiocy of having Harmony on the show
in the first place.
Post by Mark Jones
"I guess there's nothing left to do but auger this baby into the ground."
I must be a pathetic optimist, cause I still think they could save
the series.
Post by Mark Jones
Post by SWeick
OTOH nekkid Harmony would be a good thing for ratings,
and if that requires Masters to be ontop a naked MM, the
poor man will just have to make some sacrifices.
Tragic, I tells ya. I'd be glad to be his stunt double.
Back in line. No cutting.



Stephen Weick









(Hey, what are you looking down here for?)
Mark Jones
2003-10-21 02:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by SWeick
Post by Mark Jones
"I guess there's nothing left to do but auger this baby into the ground."
I must be a pathetic optimist, cause I still think they could save
the series.
I'll concede that the show might be salvageable--but I don't believe
for a moment that ME can salvage it. They're the ones who screwed it
up.

<pause>

I was going to add "...in good faith", but I don't think I can. Sure,
any production is going to have snafus and mis-steps and make
mistakes. But _too much_ of what ME has done the last few years is
just so riddled with inconsistencies and dropped stitches and
elephants in corners pointedly not being acknowledged, that I don't
think they _have_ done their good faith best. Half-assed best, maybe.
Post by SWeick
Post by Mark Jones
Post by SWeick
OTOH nekkid Harmony would be a good thing for ratings,
and if that requires Masters to be ontop a naked MM, the
poor man will just have to make some sacrifices.
Tragic, I tells ya. I'd be glad to be his stunt double.
Back in line. No cutting.
Hey, I was here first!
--

"It will let you do things nobody else can do, see things nobody else can see."
"_Real_ things?"
--Egg Shen and Jack Burton
Rose
2003-10-21 01:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Spike. Harmony. (possible spoilers?)
Date: 10/20/2003 10:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of
sorts...
Roaz, honestly, you need to decide.
Oh, dear, am I failing again?
Are you back
or not? If not, stay not. If you are, don't keep disappearing.
How's that glass house working out, Stephen? Nice and clear? :)
Cause if you aren't a contributor here, why should we
care what your two cents are?
I give up. Why?

This post was more for ME than for the group, but answers from the group are
fun if they choose to respond.
Post by Rose
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it.
Verses SMG and JM? They look it too.
I think SMG looks a bit older than 21. JMO.
Post by Rose
If you want Spike to be a moron
There isn't anything showing them wanting Spike to be
a moron. And getting involved with Harmony wouldn't
make him a moron. Just very lonely.
That's much better.


Rose
Bringing you quality posts since 1997.
Thomas Ward
2003-10-21 03:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rose
Subject: Re: Spike. Harmony. (possible spoilers?)
Date: 10/20/2003 10:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of
sorts...
Roaz, honestly, you need to decide.
Oh, dear, am I failing again?
Are you back
or not? If not, stay not. If you are, don't keep disappearing.
How's that glass house working out, Stephen? Nice and clear? :)
Cause if you aren't a contributor here, why should we
care what your two cents are?
I give up. Why?
This post was more for ME than for the group, but answers from the group are
fun if they choose to respond.
Post by Rose
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it.
Verses SMG and JM? They look it too.
I think SMG looks a bit older than 21. JMO.
I don't. I think that Mercedes McNab looks older than SMG, myself.
And maybe I'm the only one, but I think she actually looks more
attractive in vamp face than she does normally ...
Post by Rose
Post by Rose
If you want Spike to be a moron
There isn't anything showing them wanting Spike to be
a moron. And getting involved with Harmony wouldn't
make him a moron. Just very lonely.
That's much better.
Rose
Bringing you quality posts since 1997.
SWeick
2003-10-21 04:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rose
Post by Rose
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of
sorts...
Roaz, honestly, you need to decide.
Oh, dear, am I failing again?
As a productive member of this group, sure are.
Post by Rose
Post by Rose
Are you back
or not? If not, stay not. If you are, don't keep disappearing.
How's that glass house working out, Stephen? Nice and clear? :)
So staying away during the summer after Charisma was fired is
the same as you dropping out during the time of new episodes?

Whatever.

But don't worry, I'll probably be leaving once I've lost all hope
of the show returning. Took 6 1/2 seasons with BtVS. Might not
take all of five here.
Post by Rose
Post by Rose
Cause if you aren't a contributor here, why should we
care what your two cents are?
I give up. Why?
Exactly.
Post by Rose
This post was more for ME than for the group, but answers from the group are
fun if they choose to respond.
So send an email to them. This is a discussion group.
That is why you post here, not for ME to listen to you.

And basically I would think they wouldn't listen anyhow.

Lord knows why anyone should.



Stephen Weick









(Hey, what are you looking down here for?)
Rose
2003-10-21 07:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by SWeick
So send an email to them.
Nah.
Post by SWeick
This is a discussion group.
It is?
Post by SWeick
That is why you post here, not for ME to >listen to you.
That's why YOU post here.
Post by SWeick
And basically I would think they wouldn't >listen anyhow.
To me, individually? True, they would not, nor should they for that would
undermine the power of the masses. To a chorus of a 100,000 voices raised in
protest? Maybe. Like I always say, I'm willing to be a cog in a wheel. A
blade of grass in a lawn. A petal in a field of poppies. A drop in the ocean.
A hair on a head of bushy tresses.

One person can change the world, but only when that one person seizes the reins
of greatness by leading a peaceful horde one million strong into the maelstrom
of cultural upheaval.

Not to blow my own horn, or anything.
Post by SWeick
Lord knows why anyone should.
Lines like this bring to my eye a misty tear of nostalgic sentiment, thinking
on the days of yore, say 3 years ago, when you frequently answered my posts
with this tone. Ah, golden memories.


Rose
Bringing you quality posts since 1997.
William George Ferguson
2003-10-20 16:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of sorts...
The scuttlebutt on the boards, based on some vague future spoilers and an
interview with James Marsters in which he waxes on about what Spike loves about
Harmony, is that ME is floating trial balloons for a Spike/Harmony pairing.
I just want to put in my two cents: No. No way.
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it. 40ish
actor with extremely young actress in a romantic role is such an overdone
cliche. It wouldn't be illegal to put him with a woman over 30. What next,
bring back Joyce and Oz and make them a couple? No, you'd never do that,
because older woman- and- younger- man couplings aren't "okay."
Of course Seth Green is 29 (a little over one month older than Hannigan,
February to March).

McNab is 23 now, but was actually only 19 and 20 when she shot the Spike
season 4 and 5 scenes. In an interview on Zap2it, she says she actually
went out on a dinner date with Marsters once, but it ended up being more
friends-date than romantic-date. She seemed a little ooked when the
interviewer told her Marsters was 41.

(Did you have 'ep 4' in the Nekkid Spike pool?)
--
You've reached the Tittles. We can't come to the phone right now
If you want to leave a message for Christine, Press 1
For Bentley, Press 2
Or to speak to, or worship, Master Tarfall, Underlord of Pain, Press 3
Nirvana 1
2003-10-21 06:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by William George Ferguson
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of sorts...
The scuttlebutt on the boards, based on some vague future spoilers and an
interview with James Marsters in which he waxes on about what Spike loves about
Harmony, is that ME is floating trial balloons for a Spike/Harmony pairing.
I just want to put in my two cents: No. No way.
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it. 40ish
actor with extremely young actress in a romantic role is such an overdone
cliche. It wouldn't be illegal to put him with a woman over 30. What next,
bring back Joyce and Oz and make them a couple? No, you'd never do that,
because older woman- and- younger- man couplings aren't "okay."
Of course Seth Green is 29 (a little over one month older than Hannigan,
February to March).
McNab is 23 now, but was actually only 19 and 20 when she shot the Spike
season 4 and 5 scenes. In an interview on Zap2it, she says she actually
went out on a dinner date with Marsters once, but it ended up being more
friends-date than romantic-date. She seemed a little ooked when the
interviewer told her Marsters was 41.
(Did you have 'ep 4' in the Nekkid Spike pool?)
She was 21 when they went on a date.

Oh, and I think she was just playing up to the interviewer when she
mentioned how she didn't know his age cause she was at the cons while
during a Q & A James said what his age was when she was right there.
Sharpe Fan
2003-10-20 17:05:43 UTC
Permalink
I am glad to see you back, even if it is only for a brief visit.

Comments below.
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of sorts...
The scuttlebutt on the boards, based on some vague future spoilers and an
interview with James Marsters in which he waxes on about what Spike loves about
Harmony, is that ME is floating trial balloons for a Spike/Harmony pairing.
I just want to put in my two cents: No. No way.
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it.
40ish
Post by Rose
actor with extremely young actress in a romantic role is such an overdone
cliche. It wouldn't be illegal to put him with a woman over 30. What next,
bring back Joyce and Oz and make them a couple? No, you'd never do that,
because older woman- and- younger- man couplings aren't "okay."
I don't have a problem with the age difference. People (and I guess
vampires) do date people of different ages, e.g. Michael Douglas and
Catharine Zeta-Jones or Demi Moore and Ashton K.
Post by Rose
Second, Old Spike used to abuse Harmony. You guys made the decision to make
New Spike so similar to old Spike, sans only the sociopathy, that it would be
really too close to showing a woman taking back her abuser for comfort. I know
you had Spike take back his abuser last year but why repeat that?
I agree with this. Their previous relationship was dysfunctional even for
vampires. We saw no liking each other by either of them.
Post by Rose
Third, Harmony is stupid and to quite a few people, annoying. I know you like
to have characters go on and on about Spike not being that bright, but he's not
written or played that way. If you want Spike to be a moron maybe you should
give Marsters better direction so he leaves that intelligent look out of his
eyes. Putting a reasonably intelligent character with Harmony would trivialize
him. She's comic relief, a running joke, and considering the scapegoat nature
of Spike as it is, putting him with Harmony would make HIM a joke.
I never thought Spike was stupid in the same sense Harmony is. Spike was
"stupid" to be in a "relationship" with Buffy where she abused him and used
him but did not care for him (and she was stupid to be in the relationship
also) but this is a different meaning of stupid that Harmony, who probably
has to be reminded to stay out of the sunlight.
Post by Rose
Third, Harmony is an evil, soulless vampire, and since you all have firmly
established that redemption for an evil, soulless vampire is impossible, it
would be uncool for Spike, who now has a conscience, to hook up with a
sociopath.
Another good point (albeit number four not three).
Post by Rose
I don't have a crystal ball, but I think "Sparmony" would turn off Spike fans
and hurt ratings.
That's my two cents.
Rose
Bringing you quality posts since 1997.
I agree with your overall premise that Spike should not be with Harmony.
Actually, I would like to see him go at least one season without any
romantic/lustful entanglements. They do not bring out the best in him.

Sharpe Fan
Ken Arromdee
2003-10-20 17:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rose
Third, Harmony is an evil, soulless vampire, and since you all have firmly
established that redemption for an evil, soulless vampire is impossible, it
would be uncool for Spike, who now has a conscience, to hook up with a
sociopath.
But Harmony has decided not to eat any people for now, which is more than
Buffy's soulless vampire did--he tried to eat someone as soon as he thought
the chip was gone.

That being said, I have difficulty seeing why, given the vampire mythology
of the show, Harmony hasn't been staked yet. (They could even stake her and
then use the same spell W&H used on Darla, so she could be back as a souled
human.) Though it does seem that with Harmony they're stretching that
mythology near the breaking point.
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee

"How pleasant it would be if only we lived a hundred years ago when it was
easy to get servants."
"It would be horrible... We'd be the servants." -- Isaac Asimov
Rose
2003-10-21 01:41:14 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Spike. Harmony. (possible spoilers?)
Date: 10/20/2003 10:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by Rose
Third, Harmony is an evil, soulless vampire, and since you all have firmly
established that redemption for an evil, soulless vampire is impossible, it
would be uncool for Spike, who now has a conscience, to hook up with a
sociopath.
But Harmony has decided not to eat any people for now, which is more than
Buffy's soulless vampire did--he tried to eat someone as soon as he thought
the chip was gone.
Yes, and we all know how much I loved Smashed and all of the S6 eps that
followed. :o)

Rose
Bringing you quality posts since 1997.
Nirvana 1
2003-10-21 18:51:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rose
Subject: Re: Spike. Harmony. (possible spoilers?)
Date: 10/20/2003 10:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by Rose
Third, Harmony is an evil, soulless vampire, and since you all have firmly
established that redemption for an evil, soulless vampire is impossible, it
would be uncool for Spike, who now has a conscience, to hook up with a
sociopath.
But Harmony has decided not to eat any people for now, which is more than
Buffy's soulless vampire did--he tried to eat someone as soon as he thought
the chip was gone.
Yes, and we all know how much I loved Smashed and all of the S6 eps that
followed. :o)
Rose
Bringing you quality posts since 1997.
I do believe that Sparmony is wrong on so many levels. Not so much
the age thing. I mean, so what if MM is 23 and JM is 41. It is acting,
right? She is legal. Plus, in Pirates of the Caribbean, Jonney Depp
was in his words "kicking forty in the keester" while the woman--well,
girl who played Elizabeth, Keira Knightley, was 17, and they had him
make sexual advances on her. That aside, the age thing doesn't bother
me (although I would enjoy seeing somebody at least 30 with him or
anybody at that since most of the guys are at least 30 and they seem
to have like no 30 yearold women).

But the whole idea of Sparmony is wrong. Remember how we went through
that whole "Spike is eeeevil, souless, monster" thing with Buffy and
people didn't get it so they threw in the AR to make us see it? Why
the hell go through all that just to get Spike and Harmony together?
It especialy seems hypocritical of David Fury who was soooo big on the
"Spike is bad for Buffy" schtick and then he
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
has Spike sleep with her in episode 8! It just seems he is still
playing the whole "Spike is bady bad bad bad" thing seemingly to make
Angel look better.

Well, I guess pretty much what I said in reply to Rose's post.

And I do believe it will piss alot of people off, Spike fans in
particular, and they may indeed leave. In fact, all over the internet
they are talking about it.
Ken Arromdee
2003-10-21 20:37:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nirvana 1
But the whole idea of Sparmony is wrong. Remember how we went through
that whole "Spike is eeeevil, souless, monster" thing with Buffy and
people didn't get it so they threw in the AR to make us see it? Why
the hell go through all that just to get Spike and Harmony together?
I think there's an important difference. Harmony is evil, but at least
Spike is not attracted to her *because* of the thrill of being with
someone evil. And he certainly doesn't think he can reform her.

Besides, Harmony is voluntarily refraining from doing evil right now (and
independently of Spike, too), which puts her ahead of soulless Spike back
with Buffy, who only refrained from evil because of the chip.
Post by Nirvana 1
And I do believe it will piss alot of people off, Spike fans in
particular, and they may indeed leave. In fact, all over the internet
they are talking about it.
I think it'll piss off Spike fans, but for the same reason that Riley pissed
off Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike fans: the fan doesn't want to see his/her
favorite character with anyone else, period.
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee

"How pleasant it would be if only we lived a hundred years ago when it was
easy to get servants."
"It would be horrible... We'd be the servants." -- Isaac Asimov
Snds15
2003-10-21 22:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Spike. Harmony. (possible spoilers?)
Date: 10/21/2003 4:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time
I think it'll piss off Spike fans, but for the same reason that Riley pissed
off Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike fans: the fan doesn't want to see his/her
favorite character with anyone else, period.
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
I agree up to a point; a lot of fans are already annoyed because the feel it
will cheapen Spike's love for Buffy.

But another segment just thinks Harmony isn't good enough for Spike.

They don't really care who his love interest is so much as they want to feel
the love interest is worthy of him.

That's why I think ME would have less trouble pairing Spike with Fred.
Or perhaps a new character.

Sandra
Clairel
2003-10-21 23:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nirvana 1
Post by Rose
Subject: Re: Spike. Harmony. (possible spoilers?)
Date: 10/20/2003 10:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by Rose
Third, Harmony is an evil, soulless vampire, and since you all have firmly
established that redemption for an evil, soulless vampire is impossible, it
would be uncool for Spike, who now has a conscience, to hook up with a
sociopath.
But Harmony has decided not to eat any people for now, which is more than
Buffy's soulless vampire did--he tried to eat someone as soon as he thought
the chip was gone.
Yes, and we all know how much I loved Smashed and all of the S6 eps that
followed. :o)
Rose
Bringing you quality posts since 1997.
I do believe that Sparmony is wrong on so many levels. Not so much
the age thing. I mean, so what if MM is 23 and JM is 41. It is acting,
right? She is legal. Plus, in Pirates of the Caribbean, Jonney Depp
was in his words "kicking forty in the keester" while the woman--well,
girl who played Elizabeth, Keira Knightley, was 17, and they had him
make sexual advances on her. That aside, the age thing doesn't bother
me (although I would enjoy seeing somebody at least 30 with him or
anybody at that since most of the guys are at least 30 and they seem
to have like no 30 yearold women).
But the whole idea of Sparmony is wrong. Remember how we went through
that whole "Spike is eeeevil, souless, monster" thing with Buffy and
people didn't get it so they threw in the AR to make us see it? Why
the hell go through all that just to get Spike and Harmony together?
It especialy seems hypocritical of David Fury who was soooo big on the
"Spike is bad for Buffy" schtick and then he
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
has Spike sleep with her in episode 8! It just seems he is still
playing the whole "Spike is bady bad bad bad" thing seemingly to make
Angel look better.
Well, I guess pretty much what I said in reply to Rose's post.
And I do believe it will piss alot of people off, Spike fans in
particular, and they may indeed leave. In fact, all over the internet
they are talking about it.
--Oh, for heaven's sake. It's their prerogative, of course, and they
can do what they want, but to me that's just a ridiculous
overreaction.

Whatever...

Clairel
JMC
2003-10-22 00:40:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nirvana 1
But the whole idea of Sparmony is wrong. Remember how we went through
that whole "Spike is eeeevil, souless, monster" thing with Buffy and
people didn't get it so they threw in the AR to make us see it? Why
the hell go through all that just to get Spike and Harmony together?
It especialy seems hypocritical of David Fury who was soooo big on the
"Spike is bad for Buffy" schtick and then he
They did the AR to bring back the sympathy for Buffy and so that a
female writer could deal with a bad experience in her life where she
tried to use sex to get her boyfriend back, they didn't do it to prove
Spike was evil or untrustworthy. If they wanted to prove Spike was
inharently untrustworthy without a soul why the hell did they have
Buffy trust Spike to babysit her sister in the next day after the AR.
gio
2003-10-22 10:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMC
Post by Nirvana 1
But the whole idea of Sparmony is wrong. Remember how we went through
that whole "Spike is eeeevil, souless, monster" thing with Buffy and
people didn't get it so they threw in the AR to make us see it? Why
the hell go through all that just to get Spike and Harmony together?
It especialy seems hypocritical of David Fury who was soooo big on the
"Spike is bad for Buffy" schtick and then he
They did the AR to bring back the sympathy for Buffy and so that a
female writer could deal with a bad experience in her life where she
tried to use sex to get her boyfriend back, they didn't do it to prove
Spike was evil or untrustworthy. If they wanted to prove Spike was
inharently untrustworthy without a soul why the hell did they have
Buffy trust Spike to babysit her sister in the next day after the AR.
No-one said they did a good job of it:) However that is exactly the
motivation for the AR - Marti Noxon confirmed this in several
interviews (paraphrasing here, OK) "We had to do something, the fans
weren't getting it. They thought Spike was already redeemed". In
other words the fans saw Spike as more sinned against than sinning and
this 'gap' in perception was making it impossible for ME's "Buffy's
just in a bad place she isn't really a using, psycho bitch" to take
off the way they intended. Of course the problem wasn't just this but
it's pretty certain that ME preferred to place the blame on those
pesky, drooling, hormone driven, ab-worshipping Spike fans for
spoiling their wonderful depresso Buffy arc rather than realising it
was a piss poor choice of arc in the first place.

gio
JMC
2003-10-22 16:09:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by gio
No-one said they did a good job of it:) However that is exactly the
motivation for the AR - Marti Noxon confirmed this in several
interviews (paraphrasing here, OK) "We had to do something, the fans
weren't getting it.
I am sorry but what Marti said was a bunch of horse shit. The fact
remains JM said what it really was and everything else is reconn by
the writers, because there was a much larger negitive reaction to it
then they expected by the hard core fans. If Marti meant to show Spike
was evil by the AR then why the fu** did she use an event in her life
where she attaks one of her boyfriends mistakenly trying to use sex to
get back together with him. I very much doubt she was trying to say
she was an irredemable monster because of what she did and she needs a
soul.

If I would have to give my best opinion of what happened I would say
that Marti threw in the AR so she could deal with her bad experience
in her 20s and bring back the sympathy for Buffy. No part of me really
believes that the writers intended at the time of filming that Spike
was on a soul quest. Basically, the way that the writers wanted to
show Spike was evil and needed a soul was him trying to get the chip
out to be a killer again and then getting tricked by the demon and
getting his soul. But, what happened was that the writers got
massively scared after the unexpectedly large negitive response to
Spike after the AR and they they changed their story. Because, they
wanted to limit the damage to the character of Spike and bring him
back somewhat in the audiences eyes.

This is what I very much think really went on behind the scenes, the
rest is just lies by the writers.

James himself said that the AR came off much worse then the writers
wanted it to and he blamed the directors for giving him and SMG shit
for direction for the scene so he and SMG knew how to act the scene
out. And, both Joss and Jane E. have said that Spike's intent was not
to hurt or rape Buffy in the scene, that he truely did not know she
wasn't consenting which I very much expect follows what happened with
Marti in her 20s. Thus, I have to conclude that the writers were not
trying to show Spike as an evil monster with the AR. But, it came off
a bit closer to that, because of acting/directional problems, the real
to life way the scene was framed, and the fact that he ends up with a
soul not too long after that.

Basically, what I am trying to get at is the origional intent of the
scene, not the reconned crap from the writers in interviews after the
fact.
Nirvana 1
2003-10-23 00:18:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by JMC
Post by gio
No-one said they did a good job of it:) However that is exactly the
motivation for the AR - Marti Noxon confirmed this in several
interviews (paraphrasing here, OK) "We had to do something, the fans
weren't getting it.
I am sorry but what Marti said was a bunch of horse shit. The fact
remains JM said what it really was and everything else is reconn by
the writers, because there was a much larger negitive reaction to it
then they expected by the hard core fans. If Marti meant to show Spike
was evil by the AR then why the fu** did she use an event in her life
where she attaks one of her boyfriends mistakenly trying to use sex to
get back together with him. I very much doubt she was trying to say
she was an irredemable monster because of what she did and she needs a
soul.
If I would have to give my best opinion of what happened I would say
that Marti threw in the AR so she could deal with her bad experience
in her 20s and bring back the sympathy for Buffy. No part of me really
believes that the writers intended at the time of filming that Spike
was on a soul quest. Basically, the way that the writers wanted to
show Spike was evil and needed a soul was him trying to get the chip
out to be a killer again and then getting tricked by the demon and
getting his soul. But, what happened was that the writers got
massively scared after the unexpectedly large negitive response to
Spike after the AR and they they changed their story. Because, they
wanted to limit the damage to the character of Spike and bring him
back somewhat in the audiences eyes.
This is what I very much think really went on behind the scenes, the
rest is just lies by the writers.
James himself said that the AR came off much worse then the writers
wanted it to and he blamed the directors for giving him and SMG shit
for direction for the scene so he and SMG knew how to act the scene
out. And, both Joss and Jane E. have said that Spike's intent was not
to hurt or rape Buffy in the scene, that he truely did not know she
wasn't consenting which I very much expect follows what happened with
Marti in her 20s. Thus, I have to conclude that the writers were not
trying to show Spike as an evil monster with the AR. But, it came off
a bit closer to that, because of acting/directional problems, the real
to life way the scene was framed, and the fact that he ends up with a
soul not too long after that.
Basically, what I am trying to get at is the origional intent of the
scene, not the reconned crap from the writers in interviews after the
fact.
This comes from Marti Noxon BEFORE the AR:
"We've been getting so much feedback from fans," Noxon told the
Zap2it web site. "They see Spike as a hero now [but] the relationship
is basically something we thought would reflect the kinds of
relationships you choose when you are choosing the wrong person.
"People have been very upset about that. They're like, 'He's not the
wrong person. He's all redeemed.' Part of what needs to happen at this
point is [for us] to show that redemption is possible for Spike. But
he's not redeemed now, and their relationship is really based on
things that are not healthy."
"It doesn't mean that things won't get better for them," she added,
"but what it's based on right now isn't healthy. It's not showing
Buffy in the greatest light, but our intention was to show that they
need to change what it's about or it's never going to last". She then
goes on to say it may inflame some fans but the relationship isn't
bringing out the best in them, well maybe in Spike in some ways, but,
and this is what she says "it's not bringing out the best in her."

All that was before the AR so it is definitly NOT a retcon.

Ken Arromdee
2003-10-22 18:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by gio
"We had to do something, the fans
weren't getting it. They thought Spike was already redeemed". In
other words the fans saw Spike as more sinned against than sinning and
this 'gap' in perception was making it impossible for ME's "Buffy's
just in a bad place she isn't really a using, psycho bitch" to take
off the way they intended. Of course the problem wasn't just this but
it's pretty certain that ME preferred to place the blame on those
pesky, drooling, hormone driven, ab-worshipping Spike fans for
spoiling their wonderful depresso Buffy arc rather than realising it
was a piss poor choice of arc in the first place.
Umm.

There are more reasons to want to show Spike as evil than just to do a
Buffy depression story. Even if the depression story hadn't been done, they
still had to have Spike evil because that's what vampires *are* in the show.
You need a soul to be good, and a regular vampire doesn't have one.

That one story might have a little bit to do with it, but the main reason
is that vampires were always that way.
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee

"How pleasant it would be if only we lived a hundred years ago when it was
easy to get servants."
"It would be horrible... We'd be the servants." -- Isaac Asimov
Shuggie
2003-10-20 17:30:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of sorts...
Nice to see you Rose. Hope you're feeling better than you were.
Post by Rose
The scuttlebutt on the boards, based on some vague future spoilers and an
interview with James Marsters in which he waxes on about what Spike loves about
Harmony, is that ME is floating trial balloons for a Spike/Harmony pairing.
Have they already abandoned Spike/Fred then?
Post by Rose
I just want to put in my two cents: No. No way.
It's not something I'm dying to see but there are possibilities. My biggest
worry that it would be too self-referential and rely on knowledge of the
back-story.
Post by Rose
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it. 40ish
actor with extremely young actress in a romantic role is such an overdone
cliche. It wouldn't be illegal to put him with a woman over 30. What next,
bring back Joyce and Oz and make them a couple? No, you'd never do that,
because older woman- and- younger- man couplings aren't "okay."
From their looks I'd say that there's 10-15 years difference. I don't have a
problem with that. But then there's 10 years between my parents.

I'm surprised this is an issue for you now when it wasn't with Spike-Buffy.
Post by Rose
Second, Old Spike used to abuse Harmony. You guys made the decision to make
"You guys"?? You're addressing ME now are you? Just checking.
Post by Rose
New Spike so similar to old Spike, sans only the sociopathy, that it would be
really too close to showing a woman taking back her abuser for comfort. I know
you had Spike take back his abuser last year but why repeat that?
I don't think it looks like a woman taking back her abuser because I don't think
it looked like abuse at the time. It was the normal level of vampire-strength
rough-housing.
Post by Rose
Third, Harmony is stupid and to quite a few people, annoying. I know you like
to have characters go on and on about Spike not being that bright, but he's not
written or played that way. If you want Spike to be a moron maybe you should
give Marsters better direction so he leaves that intelligent look out of his
eyes. Putting a reasonably intelligent character with Harmony would trivialize
him. She's comic relief, a running joke, and considering the scapegoat nature
of Spike as it is, putting him with Harmony would make HIM a joke.
Spike has been used for comedy off and on since day one. Many people can't take
him seriously because of that. I'm not one of them but if we gets some laughs
out of Spike-Harmony - and if it happens I'm sure we will - it won't make me
think he's any less a complex character.

Besides which it's much more likely that ME will use Spike-Harmony to raise
Harmony to a more interesting level rather than dumb Spike down.
Post by Rose
Third, Harmony is an evil, soulless vampire, and since you all have firmly
established that redemption for an evil, soulless vampire is impossible, it
would be uncool for Spike, who now has a conscience, to hook up with a
sociopath.
Which is what makes me think that this won't be a major relationship. Unless
they use Spike to redeem Harmony. Done right that could be very cool.
Post by Rose
I don't have a crystal ball, but I think "Sparmony" would turn off Spike fans
and hurt ratings.
Depends how it's done. Right now I think Spike-Fred has more potential but
Spike-Harmony could be fun. Fun is good for ratings - usually.
Post by Rose
That's my two cents.
and them's mine :)
--
Shug
Chris Zabel
2003-10-20 18:56:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of sorts...
The scuttlebutt on the boards, based on some vague future spoilers and an
interview with James Marsters in which he waxes on about what Spike loves about
Harmony, is that ME is floating trial balloons for a Spike/Harmony pairing.
Please say this isn't so. I knew the writers couldn't resist pairing them
up at some point as soon as I heard MM would be a recurring character, but I
thought it would be a brief and quickly forgotten indiscretion at most for
Spike.
Post by Rose
I just want to put in my two cents: No. No way.
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it.
40ish
Post by Rose
actor with extremely young actress in a romantic role is such an overdone
cliche. It wouldn't be illegal to put him with a woman over 30. What next,
bring back Joyce and Oz and make them a couple? No, you'd never do that,
because older woman- and- younger- man couplings aren't "okay."
I don't agree with this. It's mostly just a numbers game as there aren't
many regular actresses on the show over 30. I don't think this was a
consideration by ME when coming up with this idea.
Post by Rose
Second, Old Spike used to abuse Harmony. You guys made the decision to make
New Spike so similar to old Spike, sans only the sociopathy, that it would be
really too close to showing a woman taking back her abuser for comfort. I know
you had Spike take back his abuser last year but why repeat that?
Third, Harmony is stupid and to quite a few people, annoying. I know you like
to have characters go on and on about Spike not being that bright, but he's not
written or played that way. If you want Spike to be a moron maybe you should
give Marsters better direction so he leaves that intelligent look out of his
eyes. Putting a reasonably intelligent character with Harmony would trivialize
him. She's comic relief, a running joke, and considering the scapegoat nature
of Spike as it is, putting him with Harmony would make HIM a joke.
I've always viewed Harmony as comic relief. I think ME is making a big
mistake if they try to make her a legitimate character. The prior
relationship between her and Spike was always painted as a thing of
convienience for him and that he never had any real feelings for her.
Post by Rose
Third, Harmony is an evil, soulless vampire, and since you all have firmly
established that redemption for an evil, soulless vampire is impossible, it
would be uncool for Spike, who now has a conscience, to hook up with a
sociopath.
If they use Spike to redeem Harmony in any romantic way it will be a major
violation of the Spike character. And the whole show's mythology. They
already have 2 redeemed vampires. Anymore and it will really make Buffy's
job as "vampire killer" into plain old "killer". Spike's evolution as a
character would seriously be hurt also. Lots of stuff that happened between
him and Buffy could be thrown out the window and re-interpreted.
Post by Rose
I don't have a crystal ball, but I think "Sparmony" would turn off Spike fans
and hurt ratings.
I don't think a single Spike fan would like Sparmony. Who would like it?
Mostly diehard anti-Spike fans who realizes a storyline like that would box
Spike off from the other characters on AtS and pin him to be a minor player
on the show.
SWeick
2003-10-20 20:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Zabel
If they use Spike to redeem Harmony in any romantic way it will be a major
violation of the Spike character. And the whole show's mythology.
And that has stopped ME since when?



Stephen Weick









(Hey, what are you looking down here for?)
Susan
2003-10-20 22:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Zabel
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
Gee, are you ever right! Sparmony as anything more than a passing
fling in the night would be a gross distortion of the character of
Spike. Everyone has inappropriate sex once in a while, but Spike has
for three years been deeply in love with Buffy, who, for all her
faults, was a true hero. If Spike and Buffy are not to be, one would
hope he would find love elsewhere, but with someone who could be an
equal, someone worthy of friendship, trust, and respect. Harmony, as
entertaining as she can be (in small doses), does not fit those
criteria, doesn't even come close, for all the reasons you stated.
Even if she were to somehow be "redeemed," she would still not be in
Spike's league.

Spike's character is such that he does not fall into or out of love
easily, nor does he like to feel "superior" to the woman in his life.
He does not adopt women as "projects." He would want a partner, not
someone to take care of.

I can see Spike getting together with Fred, slowly, building a
friendship that could lead to sex and romance. But not Harmony.

(snip)>
Post by Chris Zabel
Please say this isn't so. I knew the writers couldn't resist pairing them
up at some point as soon as I heard MM would be a recurring character, but I
thought it would be a brief and quickly forgotten indiscretion at most for
Spike.
Post by Rose
I just want to put in my two cents: No. No way.
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it.
40ish
Post by Rose
actor with extremely young actress in a romantic role is such an overdone
cliche. It wouldn't be illegal to put him with a woman over 30. What
next,
Post by Rose
bring back Joyce and Oz and make them a couple? No, you'd never do that,
because older woman- and- younger- man couplings aren't "okay."
I don't agree with this. It's mostly just a numbers game as there aren't
many regular actresses on the show over 30. I don't think this was a
consideration by ME when coming up with this idea.
Post by Rose
Second, Old Spike used to abuse Harmony. You guys made the decision to
make
Post by Rose
New Spike so similar to old Spike, sans only the sociopathy, that it would
be
Post by Rose
really too close to showing a woman taking back her abuser for comfort. I
know
Post by Rose
you had Spike take back his abuser last year but why repeat that?
Third, Harmony is stupid and to quite a few people, annoying. I know you
like
Post by Rose
to have characters go on and on about Spike not being that bright, but
he's not
Post by Rose
written or played that way. If you want Spike to be a moron maybe you
should
Post by Rose
give Marsters better direction so he leaves that intelligent look out of
his
Post by Rose
eyes. Putting a reasonably intelligent character with Harmony would
trivialize
Post by Rose
him. She's comic relief, a running joke, and considering the scapegoat
nature
Post by Rose
of Spike as it is, putting him with Harmony would make HIM a joke.
I've always viewed Harmony as comic relief. I think ME is making a big
mistake if they try to make her a legitimate character. The prior
relationship between her and Spike was always painted as a thing of
convienience for him and that he never had any real feelings for her.
Post by Rose
Third, Harmony is an evil, soulless vampire, and since you all have firmly
established that redemption for an evil, soulless vampire is impossible,
it
Post by Rose
would be uncool for Spike, who now has a conscience, to hook up with a
sociopath.
Snds15
2003-10-21 02:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Spike. Harmony. (possible spoilers?)
Date: 10/20/2003 2:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
The scuttlebutt on the boards, based on some vague future spoilers and an
interview with James Marsters in which he waxes on about what Spike loves
about
Post by Rose
Harmony, is that ME is floating trial balloons for a Spike/Harmony
pairing.
I don't think a single Spike fan would like Sparmony. Who would like it?
Mostly diehard anti-Spike fans who realizes a storyline like that would box
Spike off from the other characters on AtS and pin him to be a minor player
on the show.
I agree!

Harmony can be fun; but she is too inconsequential to have the audience buy
serious Sparmony.
In the past, she mostly grated on his nerves.

And I also feel most Spike fans would hate it!
I know I would; it would definitely marginalize Spike!

Sandra
JMC
2003-10-21 23:37:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Zabel
If they use Spike to redeem Harmony in any romantic way it will be a major
violation of the Spike character. And the whole show's mythology. They
already have 2 redeemed vampires. Anymore and it will really make Buffy's
job as "vampire killer" into plain old "killer". Spike's evolution as a
character would seriously be hurt also. Lots of stuff that happened between
him and Buffy could be thrown out the window and re-interpreted.
There are already parts of Spike's evolution that can be just tossed
out the window because of this. Like the idea that Spike without a
chip would become a killer again the second he got his chip out
because he was evil and wanted to kill. But, soulless Harm is able to
avoid killing humans in order to keep her job. But, Spike's love for
Buffy and Dawn wasn't supposed to be good enough to keep him from
killing without a chip.

The entire notion of him being a serial killer in prision as presented
by Fury is wrong because Spike could have decided not to kill just
like Harm if he was given some incentive or Buffy asked him or
something.

The fact is Spike is just as big an ass to Harm in episode 8 as he was
when he was soulless in season 5. He isn't quite as bad to her as he
was in early season 4, but he isn't too far off.
Idris
2003-10-20 20:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rose
I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of sorts...
The scuttlebutt on the boards, based on some vague future spoilers and an
interview with James Marsters in which he waxes on about what Spike loves about
Harmony, is that ME is floating trial balloons for a Spike/Harmony pairing.
I'll believe it when I see it. Occasionally there'a a glimpse where
you can see how Spike finds Harmony funny and even cute, but in a
very condescending, belittling way. (Witness leopard's stripes from
last week or her supervillainy from BTVS.) She just doesn't fit his
grand image of a romantic heroine. As for redeeming Harmony, I can't
honestly see that happening. It's not like she had any redeeming
qualities as a human, either. Unlike some people I've got no problem
with her swearing off human blood simply because she clearly has very
keen survival instincts. Considering how pathetic a vampire she is,
aligning herself with whoever will take her is the only way she could
possibly have survived this far.

The primary reasons I don't wish this to happen are that I don't
really want to see either of them in any kind of serious relationship
at the moment. Spike, possibly in the future. Harmony, never. I don't
mind her as a very sparingly used comic relief but it should be left
at that.
Post by Rose
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it. 40ish
actor with extremely young actress in a romantic role is such an overdone
cliche. It wouldn't be illegal to put him with a woman over 30. What next,
bring back Joyce and Oz and make them a couple? No, you'd never do that,
because older woman- and- younger- man couplings aren't "okay."
I don't think Marsters looks his age, really. He has begun to show it
a little during the last 2 seasons of BtVS, but between his
well-preservedness and Spike's punk rock image he's still pretty
youthful. Anyway, most of ME relationships are or at least turn pretty
dysfunctional at some point. If you want them to set us good examples
you'll probably be disappointed over and over again. That said, this
relationship is not something I wish to see. Not because of any
morality issues but simply because I think we've had quite enough of
the Sparmony in BTVS.


Idris
Ken Arromdee
2003-10-20 21:09:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Idris
Considering how pathetic a vampire she is,
aligning herself with whoever will take her is the only way she could
possibly have survived this far.
Unless she's a one year old child vampire, it's easy for even a weak vampire
to survive. They're still stronger than human beings.
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee

"How pleasant it would be if only we lived a hundred years ago when it was
easy to get servants."
"It would be horrible... We'd be the servants." -- Isaac Asimov
Idris
2003-10-20 21:22:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Arromdee
Post by Idris
Considering how pathetic a vampire she is,
aligning herself with whoever will take her is the only way she could
possibly have survived this far.
Unless she's a one year old child vampire, it's easy for even a weak vampire
to survive. They're still stronger than human beings.
Judging by what I've seen so far, she doesn't use her strength very well.



Idris
Ken Arromdee
2003-10-20 21:45:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Idris
Post by Ken Arromdee
Post by Idris
Considering how pathetic a vampire she is,
aligning herself with whoever will take her is the only way she could
possibly have survived this far.
Unless she's a one year old child vampire, it's easy for even a weak vampire
to survive. They're still stronger than human beings.
Judging by what I've seen so far, she doesn't use her strength very well.
I'll again refer to the scene where she explains to Spike that she got things
on sale by killing the storekeeper. I really doubt she'd have any difficulty
killing a human.
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee

"How pleasant it would be if only we lived a hundred years ago when it was
easy to get servants."
"It would be horrible... We'd be the servants." -- Isaac Asimov
Idris
2003-10-20 22:01:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Arromdee
Post by Idris
Post by Ken Arromdee
Post by Idris
Considering how pathetic a vampire she is,
aligning herself with whoever will take her is the only way she could
possibly have survived this far.
Unless she's a one year old child vampire, it's easy for even a weak vampire
to survive. They're still stronger than human beings.
Judging by what I've seen so far, she doesn't use her strength very well.
I'll again refer to the scene where she explains to Spike that she got things
on sale by killing the storekeeper. I really doubt she'd have any difficulty
killing a human.
Ok, I'll grant you that, but I've only ever _seen_ her fight extremely
incompetently. Mind you, I'm not saying that she isn't capable of
killing humans, especially if she catches them unawares. I don't think
she'd starve, I just think that is she happened to run into any
semi-competent rogue vampire hunter or similar, she'd be dust
in an instant.


Idris
SWeick
2003-10-21 04:45:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rose
Post by Ken Arromdee
Post by Idris
Considering how pathetic a vampire she is,
aligning herself with whoever will take her is the only way she could
possibly have survived this far.
Unless she's a one year old child vampire, it's easy for even a weak
vampire
Post by Ken Arromdee
to survive. They're still stronger than human beings.
Judging by what I've seen so far, she doesn't use her strength very well.
Ken just keeps repressing the hair pulling fight between VampHarmony
and Xander.

Lord knows I've tried. Idiot writers.



Stephen Weick









(Hey, what are you looking down here for?)
Mark Jones
2003-10-20 22:03:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Arromdee
Post by Idris
Considering how pathetic a vampire she is,
aligning herself with whoever will take her is the only way she could
possibly have survived this far.
Unless she's a one year old child vampire, it's easy for even a weak vampire
to survive. They're still stronger than human beings.
But we've seen Xander kill a vampire. And Willow. And Cordelia, Fred,
Gunn, Wesley, Riley, etc. Often while fighting _multiple_ vampires.

BtVS vamps are distinctly third-rate bloodsuckers, with rare exceptions.
Being the Slayer makes it _easy_ to kill vampires, but mere mortals
don't seem to have all that much trouble with it unless they're the
designated victim du jour for an episode.

Harmony is _right_ to fear for her unlife.
Ken Arromdee
2003-10-21 15:07:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Jones
Post by Ken Arromdee
Unless she's a one year old child vampire, it's easy for even a weak vampire
to survive. They're still stronger than human beings.
But we've seen Xander kill a vampire. And Willow. And Cordelia, Fred,
Gunn, Wesley, Riley, etc. Often while fighting _multiple_ vampires.
But those characters all have speaking parts. Vampires are stronger than any
human who doesn't have a speaking part.

(Or any human with non-medieval weapons, but the heroes only get to use guns
to show how useless or dangerous guns are.)
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee

"How pleasant it would be if only we lived a hundred years ago when it was
easy to get servants."
"It would be horrible... We'd be the servants." -- Isaac Asimov
Dave
2003-10-21 00:54:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
I just want to put in my two cents: No. No way.
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it.
Harmony is 20 years older than Spike? I never suspected.
jandj
2003-10-21 01:34:45 UTC
Permalink
Won't happen. I think that ME knows it would be a stupid idea for a real
Spike/Harmony romantic relationship. If anything they will play it for
laughs as an "ex-tumble".
Nirvana 1
2003-10-21 06:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of sorts...
The scuttlebutt on the boards, based on some vague future spoilers and an
interview with James Marsters in which he waxes on about what Spike loves about
Harmony, is that ME is floating trial balloons for a Spike/Harmony pairing.
I just want to put in my two cents: No. No way.
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it.
Meh...


40ish
Post by Rose
actor with extremely young actress in a romantic role is such an overdone
cliche. It wouldn't be illegal to put him with a woman over 30.
I would like that, too, though. I keep picturing Lucy Lawless.
Post by Rose
What next,
bring back Joyce and Oz and make them a couple? No, you'd never do that,
because older woman- and- younger- man couplings aren't "okay."
Well, they did have 17 yearold Eliza Dushku getting it with 28 year
old Nicholas Brendon.
Post by Rose
Second, Old Spike used to abuse Harmony. You guys made the decision to make
New Spike so similar to old Spike, sans only the sociopathy, that it would be
really too close to showing a woman taking back her abuser for comfort. I know
you had Spike take back his abuser last year but why repeat that?
Third, Harmony is stupid and to quite a few people, annoying. I know you like
to have characters go on and on about Spike not being that bright, but he's not
written or played that way. If you want Spike to be a moron maybe you should
give Marsters better direction so he leaves that intelligent look out of his
eyes. Putting a reasonably intelligent character with Harmony would trivialize
him. She's comic relief, a running joke, and considering the scapegoat nature
of Spike as it is, putting him with Harmony would make HIM a joke.
Third, Harmony is an evil, soulless vampire, and since you all have firmly
established that redemption for an evil, soulless vampire is impossible, it
would be uncool for Spike, who now has a conscience, to hook up with a
sociopath.
I don't have a crystal ball, but I think "Sparmony" would turn off Spike fans
and hurt ratings.
That's my two cents.
Rose
Bringing you quality posts since 1997.
I agree with what you said, but this is David Fury, the king of
"Spike is baddy bad bad bad" and he seems to want to make him look bad
especialy now that he is next to Angel. It is so obvious ESPECIALY
considering a line that Angel says in episode 8 (actualy, a couple)
that David Fury might as well have stood in there and said himself.
Clairel
2003-10-21 23:22:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nirvana 1
Post by Rose
possible future spoilers
I'm sticking my nose back in here for a minute to do a civic duty of sorts...
The scuttlebutt on the boards, based on some vague future spoilers and an
interview with James Marsters in which he waxes on about what Spike loves about
Harmony, is that ME is floating trial balloons for a Spike/Harmony pairing.
I just want to put in my two cents: No. No way.
The actor and actress are almost 20 years apart in age and they look it.
Meh...
40ish
Post by Rose
actor with extremely young actress in a romantic role is such an overdone
cliche. It wouldn't be illegal to put him with a woman over 30.
I would like that, too, though. I keep picturing Lucy Lawless.
Post by Rose
What next,
bring back Joyce and Oz and make them a couple? No, you'd never do that,
because older woman- and- younger- man couplings aren't "okay."
Well, they did have 17 yearold Eliza Dushku getting it with 28 year
old Nicholas Brendon.
Post by Rose
Second, Old Spike used to abuse Harmony. You guys made the decision to make
New Spike so similar to old Spike, sans only the sociopathy, that it would be
really too close to showing a woman taking back her abuser for comfort. I know
you had Spike take back his abuser last year but why repeat that?
Third, Harmony is stupid and to quite a few people, annoying. I know you like
to have characters go on and on about Spike not being that bright, but he's not
written or played that way. If you want Spike to be a moron maybe you should
give Marsters better direction so he leaves that intelligent look out of his
eyes. Putting a reasonably intelligent character with Harmony would trivialize
him. She's comic relief, a running joke, and considering the scapegoat nature
of Spike as it is, putting him with Harmony would make HIM a joke.
Third, Harmony is an evil, soulless vampire, and since you all have firmly
established that redemption for an evil, soulless vampire is impossible, it
would be uncool for Spike, who now has a conscience, to hook up with a
sociopath.
I don't have a crystal ball, but I think "Sparmony" would turn off Spike fans
and hurt ratings.
That's my two cents.
Rose
Bringing you quality posts since 1997.
I agree with what you said, but this is David Fury, the king of
"Spike is baddy bad bad bad" and he seems to want to make him look bad
especialy now that he is next to Angel. It is so obvious ESPECIALY
considering a line that Angel says in episode 8 (actualy, a couple)
that David Fury might as well have stood in there and said himself.
--Nirvana, I don't want to get into spoilers on this thread, but
please would you start a new thread and tell me which lines of Angel
dialogue in ep 8 you mean? I just don't know what you're referring
to.

And I don't think Fury is as anti-Spike as most people think he is.
Didn't you like Fury's handling of Spike in LMPTM last year? I did.

Clairel
Rose
2003-10-22 01:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clairel
And I don't think Fury is as anti-Spike as most people think he is.
Didn't you like Fury's handling of Spike in LMPTM last year? I did.
Fury loves Spike. But he doesn't want Spike to detract from how special Angel
is. That's a fact. He's said it. If Spike is redeemed and a hero, then Angel
isn't unique anymore, and Fury doesn't want that. He loves Spike, he just has
a different vision for him than many Spike fans have.

Rose
Bringing you quality posts since 1997.
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